Legislature(2005 - 2006)SENATE FINANCE 532

01/28/2005 09:00 AM Senate FINANCE


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09:06:11 AM Start
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ Continuation of Tier Redesign Project TELECONFERENCED
Report (if needed)
                              MINUTES                                                                                         
                     SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE                                                                                 
                         January 28, 2005                                                                                     
                             9:06 a.m.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                              
CALL TO ORDER                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green convened the meeting at approximately 9:06:11 AM.                                                              
                                                                                                                                
PRESENT                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator Lyda Green, Co-Chair                                                                                                    
Senator Gary Wilken, Co-Chair                                                                                                   
Senator Con Bunde, Vice-Chair                                                                                                   
Senator Bert Stedman                                                                                                            
Senator Donny Olson                                                                                                             
Senator Fred Dyson                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Also  Attending:  GARY BADER,  Chief  Investment  Officer,  Treasury                                                          
Division,  Department   of  Revenue;  MELANIE  MILLHORN,   Director,                                                            
Department  of  Administration;  TOM  BOUTIN,  Deputy Commissioner,                                                             
Department  of Revenue;  BILL CORBUS,  Commissioner,  Department  of                                                            
Revenue                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Attending  via  Teleconference:  From Offnet  Sites:  SENATOR  LYMAN                                                          
HOFFMAN; CHRIS  BURNS, Actuarial,  Mercer Human Resource  Consulting                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SUMMARY INFORMATION                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                              
Department of Revenue: Roles of ASPIB & Treasury Division                                                                       
Department of Administration: Tier Redesign Project Report                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
The  Departments  and  the  State's actuarial   consultant  answered                                                            
Committee questions  regarding the  Alaska State Pension  Investment                                                            
Board,  the  Public   Employees  Retirement  System,   the  Teachers                                                            
Retirement System, and the Tier Redesign Project.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Department of Revenue:                                                                                                     
     Roles of ASPIB & Treasury Division                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Department of Administration:                                                                                              
     Tier Redesign Project Report                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
This was  the second hearing  regarding these  presentations  in the                                                            
Senate Finance Committee.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green  announced that the purpose of today's  meeting is to                                                            
provide  Members  the opportunity  to  ask questions  regarding  the                                                            
previous  day's  presentations.  She  noted  that  Chris  Burns,  an                                                            
Actuarial Consultant  with Mercer  Human Resource Consulting,  would                                                            
be participating via teleconference  in lieu of Mercer actuarial Bob                                                            
Reynolds, who was unavailable due to unforeseen circumstances.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman asked  for further  information  pertaining to  the                                                            
Alaska  State Pension  Investment  Board (ASPIB)  investment  policy                                                            
utilized  by  the  Department  of  Revenue;  specifically  how  that                                                            
investment   strategy   interfaces   with  Mercer   Human   Resource                                                            
Consulting's actuarial determinations.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
GARY BADER, Chief  Financial Officer, Treasury Division,  Department                                                            
of  Revenue,  recounted  previous  day's  testimony  in  that  ASPIB                                                            
utilizes "strategic  allocation" investment strategy.  This strategy                                                            
reviews "the  asset classes and their  probable rates of  return and                                                            
variation  over  the  long run."  This  approach  differs  from  the                                                            
"tactical asset allocation"  investment strategy, "a far more active                                                            
strategy"  in which  people in  the market  attempt  to assess  "the                                                            
relative  value of  stocks,  bonds, and  usually,  cash." While  the                                                            
Tactical Asset Allocation  strategy, which has a "large component of                                                            
market  timing", has  existed for  years, the  number of  investment                                                            
managers utilizing  it has declined over time because  this approach                                                            
"has not  worked."  The Strategic  Allocation  approach utilized  by                                                            
ASPIB and most pension  funds "does not try and time the market" and                                                            
make  estimations of  the  relative values  of the  different  asset                                                            
classes. When ASPIB annually  establishes its asset allocations, "it                                                            
usually  does not vary  much from  one year to  the next." Once  the                                                            
allocations  are set,  the Division's  Chief  Investment Officer  is                                                            
instructed, "to  stay with the asset allocation unless  its gets too                                                            
far away from  the target return." In addition, ASPIB  might dictate                                                            
the amount  of the investment  portfolio that  could be invested  in                                                            
different asset  allocation classes.  For example, large  cap stocks                                                            
might account  "for 30 percent of the portfolio plus  or minus three                                                            
percent."  In summary,  the  asset allocation  action  is  conducted                                                            
strategically,   is  not   timed  to  the   market,  and  does   not                                                            
"guesstimate" which direction the market might move.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader stated  that the actuarial  earnings assumption  put forth                                                            
by the actuary,  Mercer Human Resource  Consulting, is presented  to                                                            
the PERS  and TRS Boards  for consideration  each year. The  actuary                                                            
assumption  is based on  historical rates  of returns. In  addition,                                                            
the actuary would apply  "a reasonable test" to the assumptions that                                                            
might be adopted by the Boards.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman  commented  that,  while  the  presenters  and  the                                                            
Members  are familiar  with the  acronyms being  used, for  clarity,                                                            
terms should be defined by name.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator   Stedman  understood   that  the   Division  and   Mercer's                                                            
procedures  align   in  that  both  utilize  historical   look-backs                                                            
regarding asset allocations  and returns. Furthermore, the fact that                                                            
the State has  such a large liability is a reason  for not utilizing                                                            
market timing. He noted  that, in addition to setting a target rate,                                                            
Mercer  must develop  some  "sort of  market allocation."  He  asked                                                            
whether a target rating is developed in that regard.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader  understood  that Mercer  is anticipating  a real rate  of                                                            
return of 4.75 percent  plus an inflation assumption of 3.5 percent.                                                            
ASPIB has specified  a five-percent  real rate of return.  "They are                                                            
very close to  each other." Were ASPIB to continually  seek a return                                                            
of 7.6  percent "and Mercer  always anticipating  that we would  get                                                            
8.25 percent,  there would be a mismatch  of liabilities  and assets                                                            
that would go  even farther if this persisted over  a long period of                                                            
time."    Approximately   ten  years  ago,  Callan  Associates   had                                                            
projected a 3.75  percent inflation return. Callan  Associates rates                                                            
are  sometimes  below  and  sometimes  above  those  of  Mercer.  He                                                            
reminded that  there are two different investment  horizons at play:                                                            
Callan  Associates  utilizes  a  five-year  investment  horizon  and                                                            
Mercer utilizes a 25 to  30-year horizon. Callan Associates has been                                                            
requested  to prepare an  efficient frontier  analysis with  an 8.25                                                            
percent   asset  allocation   with  the   recommendation  that   the                                                            
Division's  Investment Advisory Council  members and the  consultant                                                            
review that  analysis when  completed. Were  they to determine  that                                                            
the  standard  deviation   or  the  variation  of   returns  was  an                                                            
acceptable  level, then ASPIB  should review  "and perhaps  adopt an                                                            
8.25 percent return."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman asked that  Members be provided a copy of the report                                                            
when  that  exercise is  concluded,  as  "it  is important  for  the                                                            
Legislature to understand  the magnitude of the risk level in dollar                                                            
terms." Dollar  terms as  opposed to statistical  terns "are  easier                                                            
for most  people to  understand" when  referring  to such things  as                                                            
standard deviations.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green agreed that  there is an intimidation factor relating                                                            
to financial  investment jargon. In  that regard, she asked  whether                                                            
something akin  to "an Investment  101 glossary" might be  available                                                            
regarding  such  things  as  strategic   asset  and  tactical  asset                                                            
allocation investment strategies.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader disclosed that  an introductory program has been developed                                                            
by the  Department of Revenue  for new Board  members. In  addition,                                                            
new Board members  are invited to spend a day with  the Department's                                                            
Treasury Division  to further learn about the process.  Some of this                                                            
material could be made available.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green acknowledged.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader noted  that, as requested by Senator Stedman,  a report in                                                            
dollar  terms has  been developed.  Handouts  titled  the "Range  of                                                            
Returns (in  dollars) and the "Historical  Returns for PERS  and TRS                                                            
(Fiscal Years)" [copies on file] were distributed.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman  asked  whether  there  are any  negatives  to  the                                                            
State's policy to fully fund the ASPIB system.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Bader  recalled  that  a  [unspecified]   chart  discussed  the                                                            
previous  day in the Department's  presentation,  depicted  that the                                                            
funding ratio would lower in approximately 25 years.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHRIS   BURNS,   Actuarial   Consultant,   Mercer   Human   Resource                                                            
Consulting,  testified via  teleconference from  an offnet  site and                                                            
commented  that, in 2002,  there was a "reset"  of the Past  Service                                                            
Rate, which is  one of the components of the contribution  rate paid                                                            
each year by  employers. This reset  resulted in the total  unfunded                                                            
amount  being amortized  over  25 years.  The unfunded  amount  drop                                                            
reflected in the year 2002,  as depicted on the [unspecified] graph,                                                            
is representative  of the initial unfunded amount  "being completely                                                            
paid off."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman asked for further explanation.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burns expressed  that in the year 2002, it was  established that                                                            
the entire unfunded  liability of the systems' amount  would be paid                                                            
off over a 25-year period.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman asked whether  policy discussions  have included  a                                                            
funding scenario that would  fund the systems' unfunded liability to                                                            
a zero balance by having  "a balloon payment at the end." This would                                                            
have  the affect  "of lowering  the  contribution  rate for  several                                                            
years  into  the future  and  allow  more  time  for the  State  and                                                            
municipalities to adjust to the financial impact."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burns voiced being unaware of any such discussion.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde  asked the  reason  the  PERS  system's five-percent                                                             
"smoothing mechanism" that  limits the maximum employer contribution                                                            
increase  to five  percent  is not  uniform  to the  TRS system.  In                                                            
addition,  he  asked  whether  Mercer  might   recommend  that  this                                                            
limitation be  expanded to the TRS system or be eliminated  from the                                                            
PERS  system.  He  understood  that  the  Retirement  Boards,  which                                                            
consist  entirely   of  beneficiaries  of  the  retirement   system,                                                            
"basically  employ experts  to advise them  regarding investments."                                                             
The experts  provide  recommendations  to the Board,  to which  "the                                                            
laymen" on the Board "could  choose which of the recommendations, if                                                            
any, to implement."                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Bader  responded that  while  the  Board  could vary  from  the                                                            
recommendations, "they typically do not…"                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde  stressed however, that  they could. The question  is,                                                            
"whose advice  should they follow,  laymen who are beneficiaries  of                                                            
the program  or investment  experts." He suggested  that this  is an                                                            
area that should be reviewed.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Bader  responded  that  the ASPIB  Board  members  include  the                                                            
current and former Commissioners  of the Department of Revenue and a                                                            
finance officer  from a municipality.  The  Board "is not devoid  of                                                            
financial expertise."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde summarized  that  the  Board includes  two  political                                                            
appointees and one financial person.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green  asked, for clarification, whether  this Board member                                                            
discussion was  relevant to the PERS/TRS Boards or  the ASPIB board.                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader replied  that his comments  pertained to the ASPIB  Board.                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde  had understood the discussion to regard  the PERS/TRS                                                            
Boards.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green  asked that information regarding the  differences in                                                            
the membership  of the various boards be provided  to the Committee.                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde additionally  asked each Board's process regarding the                                                            
actuarial  advice;  specifically  whether the  laymen  on the  Board                                                            
might or might not follow that advice.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MELANIE  MILLHORN, Director,  Division of  Retirement and  Benefits,                                                            
Department  of Administration, informed  the Members that  the five-                                                            
member  PERS  Board   consists  of  two  members  "elected   by  the                                                            
membership" and  three members appointed by the Governor."  All five                                                            
members of  the TRS Board "serve at  the pleasure of the  Governor."                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn stated,  in response to the question  regarding how the                                                            
Boards' utilize  the actuarial consultants' advice,  that the Boards                                                            
review "the  assumptions  that underlie  the actuarial valuations."                                                             
Approximately  every  four or  five years  "a very  in-depth  study"                                                            
occurs in which each actuarial  assumption and the actual experience                                                            
of the system  is reviewed, and the  components are "recalibrated".                                                             
For example,  when the most recent  review of the investment  return                                                            
was conducted  in the  year 2000,  it was determined  that that  the                                                            
investment target of 8.25  percent "was still an accurate investment                                                            
option."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn asserted  that "there is Board interaction  and they do                                                            
take the advice of their  consultants." Defined Benefit Plan systems                                                            
"commonly"  have  an  actuarial  consultant  advise  them  on  their                                                            
assumptions,  recalibrate  the  assumptions,  and conduct  an  audit                                                            
process.  The actual  experience  of  the program  is  a factor  and                                                            
adjustments  are made,  "as needed,  because they  are looking  at a                                                            
historical look-back. They  don't have the modeling to say that this                                                            
is what we  are expecting in the future.  There is more reliance  on                                                            
their past historical experience  when looking at that information."                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Millhorn pointed  out  that, as  reflected  on page  21 of  the                                                            
"State of Alaska  PERS & TRS Tier Proposals Senate  Finance" handout                                                            
[copy on  file], the TRS  Board had not followed  the advice  of the                                                            
Mercer  actuarial  assumptions  for a  period  of nine  years,  and,                                                            
during  those  years,  up  to a  seven-percent   deviation  occurred                                                            
between the  actuarial calculated  rate and  the adopted rate.  Each                                                            
one percent deviation between  the actuarial calculated rate and the                                                            
adopted rate represents  5.5 million dollars. The  investment return                                                            
during this  time period  was much higher  during this time  period.                                                            
However, because  the system had not  adopted the recommended  rate,                                                            
the  reduced   investment  return   during  those  years   "had  the                                                            
consequence  of putting them in a  further under-funded status.  And                                                            
then in  the last years,  while they  adopted a  rate that may  have                                                            
been a little  bit higher than what  the actuary recommended,  those                                                            
were years  when there  was a downturn  in the  market, and  so they                                                            
were really loosing ground in that process."                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Millhorn  noted that  the  Boards  do ask  the  actuary  during                                                            
experience studies and  at other times when assumptions are changed,                                                            
what might occur, for example,  were the system, by policy, to adopt                                                            
a funding status lower  than 100 percent when the targeted ratio was                                                            
102 percent. The actuarial  consultant would model that scenario and                                                            
show "that  if you  do this, this  is what's  going to happen."  She                                                            
mentioned that  the Board adopted  the recommendation to  change the                                                            
mortality table in the year 2000.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde declared  a  conflict of  interest  in that  he is  a                                                            
retired teacher.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Green  clarified  that  while  Senator  Bunde might  be  a                                                            
retired teacher, he is not a member of the TRS Board.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde concurred.  Continuing,  he summarized  that the  TRS                                                            
Board,  which   could  consist  of   a  group  of  laymen   who  are                                                            
beneficiaries  of the System, might  seek the advice of experts  and                                                            
then  might choose  to  accept  "some of  the  advice,  none of  the                                                            
advice, all of the advice,  or some version of the advice and that's                                                            
the final decision."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn concurred.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Green  asked  whether  there  are  organizational   charts                                                            
available that  would reflect the PERS/TRS Boards'  interaction with                                                            
the Department  of Administration and the ASPIB Board's  interaction                                                            
with  the  Department  of Revenue,  as  well  as  the relationships                                                             
between the  two Departments  and the three  Boards. She  questioned                                                            
whether  improved   communication   between  the  groups   might  be                                                            
beneficial.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Millhorn  responded  that  an  organizational  chart  would  be                                                            
provided.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken  informed the Committee  that the PERS Board's  vote                                                            
regarding the  establishment of a  new tier was two-to-two  with one                                                            
member absent  and the TRS Board vote  was two-to-three against  it.                                                            
It should be  noted that, in both  instances, the Board members  who                                                            
served  on the Tier  Redesign Project,  voted in  support of  it. He                                                            
asked  that background  information  on  the  ten Board  members  be                                                            
provided.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken,  referencing  the Department  of  Revenue's  ASPIB                                                            
handout  "Combined  Schedule of  Invested  Assets"  [copy on  file],                                                            
asked  whether  some   efficiencies  might  be  realized   were  the                                                            
Permanent   Fund  Corporation  to   manage  PERS,  TRS,   and  ASPIB                                                            
investments.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
TOM BOUTIN,  Deputy Commissioner,  Department of Revenue,  responded                                                            
that,  "the statutory  authority  for the  ASPIB  is different  than                                                            
statutory authority for the Permanent Fund."                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green  asked whether there  is "a prohibition" to  allowing                                                            
the Permanent  Fund  Board to  take this  action,  were the  Statute                                                            
changed.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Boutin responded that, "it could be done statutorily."                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Boutin   recalled   hearing  numerous   discussions   regarding                                                            
"different  potential  efficiencies   in  the  investment  of  State                                                            
money". These discussions  extended beyond the money invested by the                                                            
Treasury  Division  and the  Permanent Fund  to include  the  assets                                                            
invested by different State  agencies, independent corporations, and                                                            
instrumentalities of the  State government. Furthermore, the opinion                                                            
has been expressed  "very often that there is some  safety in having                                                            
a diversification of the  investment responsibility." This should be                                                            
tested against  possible efficiencies  including the potential  "for                                                            
lower management  fees, which  is the primary  efficiency cited.  In                                                            
the analyses that  he has studied, "the efficiencies  didn't seem to                                                            
be there because money  management contracts throughout the industry                                                            
are  based upon  the  amounts  invested and  the  performance."  The                                                            
determination  "as to whether there is safety in diversification  or                                                            
not is a more subjective kind of thing."                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken  countered  that  increasing  the amount  of  money                                                            
managed by the Permanent  Fund Board from the current $29 billion to                                                            
$49 billion  "would  not make much  difference."  It could  however,                                                            
enhance the State's buying power in the market.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Boutin pointed out  that "the Permanent Fund has one mandate and                                                            
that is to maximize  the returns of the one fund,  and they have one                                                            
cash outflow  a year" in that funds  are provided to the  Department                                                            
of Revenue to be distributed  as Permanent Fund Dividends. The money                                                            
in the 27 different funds  invested by Treasury and the money in the                                                            
PERS/TRS  systems "have  regular  cash flows,  as  does the  general                                                            
fund.  So these  are  pretty  different mandates."  The  degrees  of                                                            
complexity  at the  Treasury  Division are  not experienced  at  the                                                            
Permanent Fund.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken  noted that, in response  to his question  regarding                                                            
which  employers had  responded  to the  Tier Redesign  Survey,  Ms.                                                            
Millhorn   had  provided   his  office  a   25-page  Department   of                                                            
Administration  report [copy not provided].  He understood  from the                                                            
report that while  the Fairbanks North Slope Borough  had responded,                                                            
the Fairbanks North Slope Borough School District had not.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn  clarified the  meanings of  the colored highlights  on                                                            
the report  in that a yellow  line indicated  that the employer  had                                                            
responded either  fully or partially; a green line  denoted that the                                                            
employer had communicated  that they had chosen not  to participate;                                                            
and a white line  indicated that no response, in any  form, had been                                                            
received. She agreed that the chart legend was unclear.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken  acknowledged the  clarification and corrected  that                                                            
the Fairbanks  North  Star Borough  had not responded  and that  the                                                            
Fairbanks School  District had responded either fully  or partially.                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken  voiced concern  that,  "due  to things  that  have                                                            
happened  in the  system,"  the PERS  employer  contribution  rates,                                                            
which have averaged  between six and ten percent,  would increase to                                                            
30 percent, and, in the  TRS system, the employer contribution rates                                                            
would increase  from an average  of ten to  twelve percent up  to 50                                                            
percent. Elevated  rate levels are  projected for at least  the next                                                            
20  years in  order  to allow  the  systems  "to play  catch-up  for                                                            
something  that  happened"  in  the past.  The  question  is,  "What                                                            
happened?"  Noting  that 75-percent  of the  funds  in the  PERS/TRS                                                            
systems result  from investments, he observed that  that side of the                                                            
equation has tracked close  to projections. It exceeded expectations                                                            
for seven years;  dipped below expectations  in 2000; and  is now on                                                            
target again.  Everything  in this regard,  "has been tracking  very                                                            
well." Therefore,  if the problem is not due to the  investment side                                                            
of the equation, he asked, "what did happen" in the systems.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken noted that  the remainder of the funds' balance, 25-                                                            
percent, is  attributed to Employer  Contributions. Referencing  the                                                            
chart on page 15 of the  "State of Alaska PERS & TRS Presentation to                                                            
the Alaska Legislature"  [copy on file], he observed that, since the                                                            
current under-funded  situation  is not the  result of the  system's                                                            
investments from 1987 to  today, the problem causing the increase in                                                            
the employer contribution  levels must be elsewhere.  The PERS Board                                                            
had closely  followed  the recommendations  of the  actuary and,  in                                                            
only  three out  of 17  years  had they  adopted rates  below  those                                                            
recommended  by  the actuarial;  two  of those  being  the two  most                                                            
recent years.  The PERS Board "toed  the line, made tough  decisions                                                            
and stayed  with it."  In contrast,  the TRS Board  adopted  a lower                                                            
employer contribution rate  than was recommended by the actuarial 12                                                            
out  of 17  times; "they  punted and  they  did not  make the  tough                                                            
decisions  and they  under-funded …  sometimes by  as much as  eight                                                            
points." "That explains  why TRS is being asked to go from ten to 50                                                            
while PERS is being asked to only go from six to 30."                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken  stressed, however,  that this does not provide  the                                                            
answer to  the question,  "how did  we get to  where we are  today?"                                                            
Were neither  the  investments nor  the Employer  Contribution  Rate                                                            
levels  "with the exception  of TRS",  the reason  for the  unfunded                                                            
liability, he  asked what factor has negatively affected  the system                                                            
to the  degree that  would require  Employer  Contribution rates  to                                                            
increase dramatically  for the next twenty years.  He noted that the                                                            
Legislature was  initially briefed on this situation  in March 2004.                                                            
While the reason  for the current  situation is unclear,  it must be                                                            
addressed in order to prevent  this scenario from being "a burden on                                                            
the next generation  of Legislators  and payers … in Alaska  to fund                                                            
this sort of contribution."  He concluded that, "he  cannot make the                                                            
dots  connect  on how  we  got to  where  we  are today."  With  the                                                            
exception  of the  Employer Contribution  Rates adopted  by the  TRS                                                            
Board,  "the rules  seemed to  have been  followed for  the past  17                                                            
years."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader explained  that in approximately  1992, an automatic  Post                                                            
Retirement   Pension  Adjustment   (PRPA)   that  was  included   in                                                            
legislation enacting  Tier 2 changed the TRS Pension  Formula. While                                                            
Tier 2,  over a long period  of time, would  result in savings  over                                                            
what Tier  1 employees receive,  "its initial  impact to the  system                                                            
was  that  there   would  be  an  annual  post  retirement   pension                                                            
adjustment   given  to   retirees."  The   Administration  and   the                                                            
Legislature  understood  that  there would  be a  big  spike in  the                                                            
Contribution Rate.  However, while the TRS Board was  fully aware of                                                            
the  situation,  they adopted  a 12-percent  rate  for  a series  of                                                            
years, due  to their "not  wanting to cause  massive layoffs  in the                                                            
school districts  around the State." The actuary agreed,  "that this                                                            
was a sound way  to do it … to set it at 12-percent  and maintain it                                                            
for several  years until  the indebtedness  was paid off."  The rate                                                            
was reduced  to 11-percent in 1999  when that debt was paid  off. It                                                            
was at  this same time  "that the  stock market  tanked and  all the                                                            
actuarial assumptions  were revised."  The actions of the  TRS Board                                                            
would  not appear  as bad  were  one to  remember  what happened  in                                                            
approximately 1992.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader  apologized  that he could  not provide  an answer  to the                                                            
question  as  to  the reason  for  the  four-fold  increase  in  the                                                            
Employer Contribution Rate.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman referenced  the Department of Revenue handout titled                                                            
"Cumulative  Performance Relative  to Target"  chart [copy  on file]                                                            
and commented  that the chart  is not an  actual depiction  of where                                                            
the systems  are, as, from viewing  the chart, it would be  expected                                                            
that the systems "would  be 100-percent fully funded." Therefore, he                                                            
questioned  whether it might be the  weighting or the timing  of the                                                            
cash flows that distort the information.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader clarified that  the intent of that chart was to depict how                                                            
the  returns  of  the  system  perform  relative  to  the  Actuarial                                                            
requirement.  He believed that  the funds would  have been  close to                                                            
being fully funded "if  the Employer Contribution Rate had been held                                                            
to its level" and no "substantial  changes in Actuarial Assumptions"                                                            
had  occurred in  the  year 2000."  The  combination  of changes  in                                                            
assumptions  and low contribution  rates conjoined  "to create  this                                                            
environment."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator Olson  inquired as  to whether any  safeguards are  in place                                                            
through which to protect  the systems from future significant market                                                            
fluctuations.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader  responded that  the investments  could be protected  were                                                            
such things  as "a very conservative  asset allocation" implemented                                                             
by placing all of the funds  into United States Treasury securities.                                                            
However, this  low-risk approach would require higher  contributions                                                            
to the system.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Senator Olson  asked whether other safeguards such  as directing the                                                            
consultants  to alert  the  Boards when  significant  problems  were                                                            
foreseen or  a significant decrease  in funding were occurring.  The                                                            
stock market has such safeguards.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader was unaware of any safeguards.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde  understood  that  the  PERS/TRS  Boards  review  the                                                            
entirety  of information  provided  to them  prior  to making  their                                                            
determinations.  Therefore, it could be stated that  what the Boards                                                            
are doing is market timing.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Millhorn  opined that  the  Boards "do  follow"  the  actuarial                                                            
consultants' counsel. After  studying the process, her understanding                                                            
is that actuarial  reports are "their  very best guess at  what they                                                            
believe  will  happen  based  on  the different   assumptions."  The                                                            
information  provided   by  the  actuarials  "is  their   very  best                                                            
professional   statistic   analyses,"   based  on   other   national                                                            
situations,  and the multitude  of statistical  information  that is                                                            
utilized in  the modeling. They provide  this information  and their                                                            
"very  best   recommendations"   to  the   Boards.  At  times,   the                                                            
assumptions  utilized are inaccurate  and are updated. The  adoption                                                            
of  a   new  mortality  table   in  the   year  2000,  which   added                                                            
approximately  2.9 years to the 28,000-member population,  added 8.5                                                            
percent  to   the  Employer  Contribution   Rate  burden.   This  is                                                            
significant  in that  there has been  a ten-percent  rise in  health                                                            
care  costs over  the  past decade.  The  cost consequences  of  the                                                            
increase in mortality rate  are added to the system's liabilities. A                                                            
variety of factors  contribute to the systems' under-funded  status,                                                            
as  detailed on  page  seven  of the  Department  of Administration                                                             
handout  titled, "State  of Alaska  PERS & TRS  Presentation  to the                                                            
Alaska Legislature"  handout  [copy on file],  a variety of  factors                                                            
including health  care costs and demographic experience,  contribute                                                            
to the  systems' under-funded  status,  and there  is impact  when a                                                            
variety  of  the factors  change  simultaneously   in a  three  year                                                            
period.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde  opined that similar information is  also available to                                                            
individual  investors who  are market timers.  "Sometimes you  guess                                                            
right and sometimes you guess wrong."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken,  recognizing  that  the benefit  of  having  20/20                                                            
hindsight could not be  ignored, stated that the continuing position                                                            
that the decline in the  stock market is the reason for the unfunded                                                            
liability  for the systems  is unfounded,  as "the  record does  not                                                            
show  that."   He  stated   that  the   investment  component   that                                                            
contributes  75 percent of  the systems'  funding should be  removed                                                            
from the equation  as the information on page 15 and  page 16 of the                                                            
aforementioned  handout indicates  that "while the stock  market had                                                            
something   to  do  with  it",  it   did  not  cause  the   employer                                                            
contribution  rate to quadruple for  the PERS system or to  increase                                                            
six-fold in the case of the TRS system for the next 20 years.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken stated  that the information on page 15 depicts that                                                            
from 1987  through the year  2004, the actual  return was less  than                                                            
the  return assumption  only  four out  of 17  years.  Two of  those                                                            
years, 1991 and 1994, were  miniscule amounts. The significant lower                                                            
years  were in  2001 and  2002  when the  expected  return was  8.25                                                            
percent  and the  actual return  for 2001  was minus  5.25  percent.                                                            
"That is a fourteen-point  swing and that is significant."  However,                                                            
the question  is whether  the investment  side of  the equation  was                                                            
significant enough to affect  the system to the degree reflected for                                                            
twenty years out.  He argued that the investment side  should be set                                                            
aside as it is not the cause of the current situation.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader agreed. He clarified  that his comment regarding the stock                                                            
market's decline  in the year 2000 was coincidental  to the time the                                                            
problem with the systems  was discovered. He stated that both he and                                                            
the actuaries would agree  that the stock market "was not the reason                                                            
for this problem."                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green  asked therefore whether  medical expenses  should be                                                            
the focus of the problem.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burns commented  that while the  investments played a  role, the                                                            
higher  than   expected  trend  in   health  care  expenses   had  a                                                            
substantial impact on the  systems. The health care assumptions were                                                            
reset in  2002 to  more accurately  reflect what  was thought  to be                                                            
future experience. "The  best indicator of future experience is past                                                            
experience."                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Green understood  that there is  a difference between  the                                                            
PERS and TRS health  systems in that the TRS system  is self-insured                                                            
and as such  has "conducted a more  aggressive front line  review of                                                            
medical needs,  etc." There is an  investment by the participant  to                                                            
keep that program whole.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman furthered  Senator Olson's remarks regarding whether                                                            
"some floor  or exit" or protection  strategies could be  considered                                                            
to  protect  the  portfolios.   However,  he  understood   that  the                                                            
Strategic Asset Allocation  policy adopted for the management of the                                                            
fund  does   not  allow   this;  "it  ignores   short  term   market                                                            
fluctuations  in the market  and utilizes  longer term averages  and                                                            
correlations…."  Unfortunately, there  have been periods  of time in                                                            
which the market had experienced some "unfavorable" returns.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Bader  concurred  with  Senator  Stedman's  definition  of  the                                                            
investment strategy.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman asked  for confirmation  "that there  is no  market                                                            
timing going on."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader provided that assurance.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman summarized  therefore that the State's adopted asset                                                            
allocation strategy policy "doesn't allow for market timing."                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Olson asked  whether changing  the investment  policy  to a                                                            
Tactical Asset Allocation strategy might be considered.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader  responded  that this could  be done.  There are  Tactical                                                            
Asset Allocation  managers' however  "their record is not  good." He                                                            
noted  that, "there  is a  way to  set a  floor on  losses. You  can                                                            
probably  enter into  an agreement  with Wall Street  firms to  swap                                                            
your returns  and they'll guarantee  a certain rate of return,  kind                                                            
of like portfolio insurance.  But it turns out to be very expensive.                                                            
They only do things  if they are going to make a profit.  There is a                                                            
way to do it but it would be very expensive."                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Senator Olson asked whether  steps or policies are being considered,                                                            
other  than the  establishment  of  another  tier, to  prevent  this                                                            
unfunded liability burden from re-occurring in the future.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn responded  that the "three levers that are available as                                                            
a policy matter" include:  putting additional funds in to the system                                                            
to  pay off  some or  all of  the unfunded  liabilities;  to  reduce                                                            
benefits going  forward through such  means as the development  of a                                                            
new tier;  and, "to have  higher than expected  targeted  investment                                                            
income returns  over some period of time." While the  third lever is                                                            
possible,  few  investment   analysts  would  view   this  as  being                                                            
"probable."                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde  clarified that the establishment of  a new tier would                                                            
not result in  reducing the benefits provided to current  employers.                                                            
The State  Court system  has ruled that  retirement contracts  could                                                            
not be changed once a person becomes vested.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn  affirmed  that Article  12, Section  7 of the  State's                                                            
Constitution   "protects   those   members'  benefits   from   being                                                            
diminished or impaired."                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde asked whether  the legal opinion also established that                                                            
medical benefits, "which  are a large portion of this problem …could                                                            
not be changed for current members of the system."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn  affirmed that existing  members' medical benefits  are                                                            
protected. An Alaska Supreme  Court decision issued in the year 2001                                                            
addressed  this  issue.  She  noted that  while  this  decision  was                                                            
remanded  to the  State Superior  Court,  the reason  was "just  for                                                            
remedy.  They  have  determined  that  those  medical  benefits  are                                                            
protected."                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Green understood  that  it would  be permissible  for  the                                                            
benefits to be changed "as long as they were not diminished."                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn  clarified  that the  Court ruled that  changes  to the                                                            
plan or increases  in the benefits  could be made provided  that the                                                            
proposed  increases  and decreases  "must  be offset"  with the  end                                                            
result of the redesign being neutral.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator Bunde expressed  that comparing this system to the plight of                                                            
the federal social security  program might be inappropriate, as this                                                            
system  would  not  "go  broke."  In  addressing  the  three  levers                                                            
suggested to  address the problem,  he opined that the stock  market                                                            
is highly speculative,  and since the benefits for current employees                                                            
could not be changed,  the only way to address benefits  would be to                                                            
establish a  new tier. "And the central  issue then will  be, still,                                                            
increased contributions."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken  turned attention to the aforementioned  information                                                            
on page 15 and  asked whether the PERS system would  have been fully                                                            
funded were  the difference  in the actual  computed rate and  board                                                            
adopted rate for the depicted 17 years, zero.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn  informed that the Department  has requested  Mercer to                                                            
prepare this information,  and once completed, the information would                                                            
be provided to the Committee.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken  asked whether his  perspective of the situation  is                                                            
"somewhat right."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burns responded  that there are  "two components to being  fully                                                            
funded:  one  is  the  liabilities  and  one  is  the  assets."  The                                                            
alignment  of the  actuarial computed  rate and  board-adopted  rate                                                            
would  only  pertain  to  the  asset  side  of  the  equation.  "The                                                            
liabilities, on  the other hand, have increased more  than expected"                                                            
since  1987  due  to such  things  as  changes  in  assumptions  and                                                            
increased  medical expenses.  Therefore,  the response  to  Co-Chair                                                            
Wilken's question  "is no, but not necessarily because  of the asset                                                            
component but because of the liability component."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Wilken  asked whether it is the actuarial's  responsibility                                                            
to review the  liability component  and make recommendations  to the                                                            
State in regards to what contribution levels should be charged.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burns responded  yes;  however,  he reiterated  that  actuarial                                                            
assumptions  are reviewed  approximately every  two or three  years,                                                            
and were it  determined that the "data  has changed," the  actuarial                                                            
assumption would  be changed at that time. While future  experiences                                                            
are forecast based  on past experience, "the future  experience does                                                            
not always occur."                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken stated  that  he looked  forward  to receiving  the                                                            
requested report.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman   asked  for  further  information   regarding  the                                                            
methodology  utilized in  arriving  at the 8.25  percent  investment                                                            
target rate with a 3.5  percent inflation assumption imbedded in the                                                            
total.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burns responded  that,  in general,  both past  experience  and                                                            
return expectations  are considered in the asset return  assumption.                                                            
Several reviews  conducted by Mercer and other independent  auditors                                                            
have supported the continuance of the 8.25 percent rate.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman understood  that there are different asset groups to                                                            
which different weights and asset strategies are applied.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Burns affirmed  that the asset strategy and allocation  is taken                                                            
into consideration.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman  stated that  further  information  in this  regard                                                            
would  be appreciated,  as  he  would "like  to  compare  it to  the                                                            
strategy  that  is   implemented."  Continuing,   he  asked  for  an                                                            
explanation  of the Department of  Revenue handout titled  "Range of                                                            
Returns  (in  dollars)"  [copy on  file],  as  he is  attempting  to                                                            
determine "how much risk  is associated with this endeavor. Clearly,                                                            
as expressed  by Co-Chair Wilken,  there is substantially  more risk                                                            
assumed that a lot of people anticipated."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader stated  that the "Range  of Returns (in dollars)"  handout                                                            
was  developed  to  further  define  the  "1-Year  Range  of  Return                                                            
Comparison"  graph   on  page  22  of  the  "Alaska  State   Pension                                                            
Investment  Board Presentation to  the Senate Finance Committee  The                                                            
Role of  ASPIB and the  Treasury Division"  handout [copy on  file].                                                            
The  graph,  which  was  developed  by  Callan Associates,   depicts                                                            
"percentile probabilities  of having different returns  "relative to                                                            
the  medium  rate of  return.  The  medium  rate  of return  in  the                                                            
exemplar was 7.84  percent, and the graph depicted  that achieving a                                                            
rate of 23.94  percent "would only  happen about ten percent  of the                                                            
time." The handout  depicts these percentile probabilities  in terms                                                            
of dollars  as they  relate  to the PERS  system. Were  the rate  of                                                            
return  to be in  the 10th  Percentile  one year,  the system  would                                                            
profit  by approximately  two billion  dollars.  Conversely, half  a                                                            
billion dollars  could be lost were the rate of return  to be in the                                                            
90th Percentile.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
                            Range of Returns                                                                                    
                              (in dollars)                                                                                      
                                     PERS                 TRS                                                                   
                               $8,185,108,000       $3,913,423,000                                                              
                     Proposed   Gain/(Loss)           Gain/(Loss)                                                               
     10th Percentile  23.94%  1,959,514,855           936,873,466                                                               
     25th Percentile  16.03%  1,312,072,812           627,321,707                                                               
     Medium             7.84%    641,712,467          306,812,363                                                               
     75th Percentile   0.22%     18,007,238             8,609,531                                                               
     90th Percentile  -6.17%   (505,021,164)          (241,458,199)                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde  understood  therefore  that  there  would be  a  ten                                                            
percent chance  of achieving a 23  percent rate of return  and a ten                                                            
percent chance, rather  than a ninety percent chance, of achieving a                                                            
minus-six percent rate of return.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader affirmed.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman  asked whether  the  asset  allocation information                                                             
presented during the previous  day's meeting was developed by Callan                                                            
Associates  or by Mercer Human Resources  Consulting. He  understood                                                            
that   Callan   Associates   developed   the   standard    deviation                                                            
information.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Burns responded  that  Callan Associates  developed  the  asset                                                            
allocations presented.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman  stated therefore  that Callan Associates  developed                                                            
"the 8.25 percent target, but not the portfolio."                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Mr.  Bader  expressed  that  the "Range  of  Returns  (in  dollars)"                                                            
exemplar depicts  that Callan Associates'  efficient frontier  would                                                            
earn 7.84 percent.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman asked whether  Callan Associates' allocation mirrors                                                            
the portfolio allocation of the asset classes.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader  replied, "Yes,  it is, within the  bands approved  by the                                                            
Board. It would never be right on target."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman asked  the effect  of being  "on the  left side  of                                                            
standard deviation  for four years, in regards to  the fund's assets                                                            
and the  contribution  rate.  In other  words, he  is attempting  to                                                            
determine how much risk  is inherent in the portfolio and the upward                                                            
pressure  it might  exert  on  the contribution  rate  depending  on                                                            
whether a tight dispersion or a wide dispersion exists.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader responded  that the aforementioned  presentation  included                                                            
three exemplars  depicting the range of returns for  one-year, five-                                                            
years,  and ten-years,  on page  22, 23,  and 24,  respectfully.  He                                                            
stated that the ten-year  Range of Return Comparison "would not have                                                            
that dispersion."  The longer the term, the closer  one would get in                                                            
obtaining the target.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Stedman  acknowledged.  He suggested  that  were the  three                                                            
exemplars depicted  in dollars rather than in statistical  terms, it                                                            
would be easier to determine how much downside risk there is.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader replied  that he would work  with Senator Stedman  in this                                                            
regard.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Senator Dyson  voiced appreciation for the discussion,  particularly                                                            
in regards  to  Co-Chair Wilken's  questions.  Were  the problem  to                                                            
include other  factors besides the collapse of the  equities market,                                                            
he asked whether  it would be fair  to say that the funds'  managers                                                            
"failed to  anticipate the  increases in the  liability both  on the                                                            
health side  and the number of participants  and failed to  alert or                                                            
make the changes  in the contribution  rates, several times  over in                                                            
the past."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn responded  that, "the way that the system works is that                                                            
that actuarial  valuation will go  each year and measure  the assets                                                            
for the  system  and the  liabilities for  the system.  That is  the                                                            
process that we have in  place. They are using the actual experience                                                            
and then  they are  calibrating  that against  their assumptions  in                                                            
making those  changes. There  are liabilities  that were taken  into                                                            
the system  beginning in 2000 through  2003 through some  assumption                                                            
changes. That  happens on an annual basis and there's  not a process                                                            
where Mercer will  say or anticipate in advance that  there would be                                                            
a downturn  in the market or that  mortality tables will  be changed                                                            
prospectively.  It happens  at a set point  in time and that's  when                                                            
that assumption is adopted.  That's when those liabilities are taken                                                            
into" the various  systems. Rather than being prospective  in making                                                            
the changes  to the system  and anticipating  what the market  would                                                            
do, the process  is more of a forecasting  or "best guess"  based on                                                            
historical experiences.  "The forecasters do not have a crystal ball                                                            
to know what the  health trend is going to be exactly."  This is how                                                            
defined benefit packages are managed nationally.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Dyson  stated that while the  comments are that there  is no                                                            
look forward,  the  chart appears  to reflect  that the adjustments                                                             
were made to fit the reality.  The point is that the assumptions for                                                            
the future are made and  adjusted based on historical data. However,                                                            
he pointed  out that  "there are  few people in  North America  that                                                            
didn't understand  that health  costs have  been going up more  than                                                            
linear, and it  would seem to me that the mathematical  model of the                                                            
number  of people  who  are retiring  can't  have much  of an  error                                                            
margin in it."  In conclusion, he  asked, "What went wrong"  and how                                                            
could we avoid this scenario in the future.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Ms.  Millhorn  acknowledged   the  comments  and  replied  that  the                                                            
convergence  of  numerous  factors  created this  situation.  It  is                                                            
recognized "that  the health cost trends are volatile"  and would be                                                            
reviewed  annually, going  forward, instead  of every three  or four                                                            
years.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Dyson  expressed that,  20/20  hindsight  aside,  competent                                                            
experts  in  this  field should  have  foreseen  the  situation.  He                                                            
suspected  that what  occurred  "was that  people  were robbing  the                                                            
future to avoid  the pain of very difficult decisions  in the past."                                                            
While he understood  that, "it really  is an irresponsible  position                                                            
that  we have been  in."  We must "create  an  environment in  which                                                            
distress  flags" that force  us to make decisions,  could be  raised                                                            
without fear. He asked whether he was wrong.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader and Ms. Millhorn agreed that he was not wrong.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn  reminded  however, that  all pension  systems and  all                                                            
defined  benefits   systems,  nationally,  are   in  the  very  same                                                            
situation.  While  the contributing  factors  might  differ in  each                                                            
plan, all defined benefit  plans have some very significant exposure                                                            
to their  employers and all  of the risk is  borne by the  employer,                                                            
and,  because  of that,  "any  changes that  happen,  because  those                                                            
members,  those   pensioners  are  guaranteed  and  promised   those                                                            
pensions for the  rest of their lives, any changes,  any adjustments                                                            
that happen is borne by the employer."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Green asked  how private  employers  have addressed  these                                                            
trends in defined benefit plans.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Ms. Millhorn stated  that, defined contribution plans  have "changed                                                            
pretty  dramatically  over  the  last  15-year  period."   Currently                                                            
defined  benefit plans represent  approximately  17-percent  of plan                                                            
options,   as   private  employers   have   moved   toward   defined                                                            
contribution plans  for a number of reasons: "to afford  portability                                                            
to their  members because  it is recognized  that employees  go from                                                            
one job to  another job and it allows  that portability.  It is also                                                            
recognized  that having the  employer bear  all of the risks  in the                                                            
defined benefit  plan is  not an exposure  that they are willing  to                                                            
take on."  About 90-percent  of  the government  sector continue  to                                                            
have defined benefit  plans, "but every year, and  especially in the                                                            
last three  years, there  is an  increase in the  number looking  at                                                            
pension  reform  as the  question  is whether  the  employer  should                                                            
continue to bear all of the exposure and all of the risk."                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Senator  Bunde declared  that  Legislators  and many  others  should                                                            
share in the  responsibility for the  situation, as, as long  as ten                                                            
or twelve years ago, a  Legislator from Fairbanks raised the warning                                                            
flag  about the  sustainability  of  defined  benefit  plans but  no                                                            
action was taken.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Wilken recounted  that, in the  1990s, another  Legislator                                                            
raised the issue of a defined contribution plan.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman asked for  confirmation that the 7.70 percent number                                                            
depicted on the "Efficient  Frontier Segment" chart depicted on page                                                            
19 of the Department of Revenue handout was the target amount.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Mr. Bader stated  that at the time the chart was developed,  it was.                                                            
Currently the target amount is 7.84 percent.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Senator Stedman  reviewed some calculations  he had developed  based                                                            
upon  that information  and  compared  it to  the Range  of  Returns                                                            
handout. He reiterated  that the impact was easier to visualize when                                                            
the percentages were translated to dollars.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair  Green pointed out  that the Department  of Administration                                                             
has distributed  information [copy on file] pertaining  to the PERS,                                                            
TRS, and ASPIB Board memberships and responsibilities.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
There  being  no  further  questions,  Co-Chair  Green  thanked  the                                                            
Departments for the presentations.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Co-Chair Green adjourned the meeting at 10:38 AM.                                                                               

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